There's a meetin' here tonight

My last post was also published at HuffPo, and even though they missed the first line, which changed, if not the dynamic, at least the lead in, it still generated some, ahem, interesting comments.

Missing line:

Here's why libertarianism will never work.

I got some of the usual comments:

This is complete idiocy.

Same guy:

Take your uneducated anti-libertarian screen and shove it deep in your rectum.

Now that's a persuasive argument. Another commenter replied:

I think you meant, "Take your uneducated anti-libertarian SCREED and shove it deep in your rectum." Open up.

Made me laugh.

But this was interesting:

Actually, I think Libertarians do understand what they espouse. They just have to disguise it and twist it around, for Libertarian really means Social Darwinist Oligarch.

Adoption of the connotations (and some of the aims) of the civil libertarian are a smokescreen.

The real problem that they have with Government is not its intrusiveness, it is the restrictions that societies tend to impose on their desires for power and wealth, decrying the evils of downward redistribution of wealth while ignoring the evils of upward redistribution (to themselves).

Their general rabidity (which you will see demonstrated in earnest as this thread matures) is mostly a reaction to the social suppression of their own greed.

Their support of personal liberty is generally to be commended, even if their goal is not really freedom and social justice, but rather that they want the liberty to freely take what they desire with no governance or regulation, regardless of the consequences for their fellow humans.

Thus, noted libertarians such as Bob Barr can be a temporary ally of the left on issues of civil liberties, and still be viewed as a fascist for his views toward the role of governement vis-a-vis a "free market" society: the elimination of the social protections for the weak against the strong (AKA, Social Darwinism).

It's truly fascinating to listen to them argue about the government "pointing guns to their heads" to make them pay taxes to support "lazy" people (your core Libertarian anti-social creed).

Rule 1: Never get into an argument with a true believer. You cannot win. Even if you can get them to acknowledge that the logic of their world view leads to oligarchy with them on top, you will find that they have no moral compunctions with regards to what kind of society they would impose on the rest of us given the opportunity.

If you happen to think you are a Libertarian, and you do not find this analysis accurate, then perhaps you are not really a Libertarian with a capital L after all. Liberty for an ambitious few is not liberty, it is oligarchy.

Most Libertarians I know are decent, hard-working folk (usually very hard working) who just believe their own rhetoric about how people who struggle to earn a living just aren't working hard enough, and that they are just smarter than everyone else and, as a result, deserve more out of life.

I think I agree.

But just today, another commenter left this, which I found thought provoking (sorry, no links to comments at HuffPo):

A real libertarian who ascribes to Ayn Rand's logical rational world, agrees that Government is essential to provide not only basic services but services to the neediest in society. Welfare is not against real Libertarian ideals. Also, a real Libertarian would be pro Unions as well. Bottom line profit is not the ultimate goal. Survival of any business enterprise (including a country's economy) requires a balance between business and labor.

What a real Libertarian decries is taxation without representation.

Libertarians are today in both the Republican and the Democratic party. Real Libertarians believe deeply about freedom and privacy.

Too many GREEDY individuals who espouse the need for Laissez-Faire business are using the label of Libertarian for personal gain. (Real Libertarians know that Laissez-Faire business can only exist in a utopian society where people live with-in the highest of values. Honesty, integrity, and logic.

One of the major principles of being a Libertarian is giving value for a value in return. Welfare in society is given and society benifits. Tax dollars given to the needy pay for housing, utilites, food, and other goods within the local community. Welfare is, in effect, a way of rebateing tax dollars to a community that has higher homeless and needy populations. By making sure people have the basic necessities they are better able to enter the work force if they can. Value for Value.

Education is also a value for value proposition. Tax dollars given to educate the populace provide a viable workforce for the community which in turn provides tax dollars which can go back to the communities again. Value for Value!

Please note all Republicans who call themselves Libertarians are in fact, not. Any real Libertarian has attributes that embrace both parties but also reject portions of each party. A real Republican with Libertarian ideals would vote with the Democrates on many bills before Congress and most definately would not vote for the Patriot Act Extention with out serious safeguards. In fact based on most of the pieces of the Patriot Act I have read would be rejected entirely.

I really have no trouble with any of this. I just haven;t heard many Conservatarians talk like this. But here's the kicker, as the writer goes on:

By the way, if you haven't already figured it out I believe in the Libertarian ideals. I am currently a registered Libertarian who has voted Democrat for the last several years. I abhor the whores in Congress who call themselves Libertaran. They have caused a great deal of misunderstanding of what a Libertarian believes in.

I will be changing party, I am sick over the Republicans hijacking my party and for my party being bastardized by its current membership aligning with conservatives.

A Real Libertarian believes in ACCOUNTABLILITY AND FISCAL DISCIPLINE, MEANING...NO BRIDGES TO NOWHERE, NO 9 BILLION LOSSES IN IRAQ, NO 16 THOUSAND EARMARKS, NO GIVEAWAYS TO CORPORATIONS (THOSE TAX DOLLARS GIVEN TO CORPS WERE NOT ESSENTIAL FOR GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS!)

Remember a Real Libertarian is first RATIONAL and believes strongly in LOGIC. Limited government means let the tax payers keep those dollars not needed to operate the Government, don't give billions of our tax dollars to Corporations. In my Libertarian world tax payers recieve Governmental Services that benefit all. No handouts to Corporations, ever.

There's a coalition here, just waiting to be born. I hope.

Oh, and filibuster Alito, dammit!